Inside the Self Help Revolution One of the Key Architects of EST and Landmark

➡ Lisa Schermerhorn, a quantum healer and hypnotist, hosts a show called “Where Truth Lies”. She interviews Marcia Martin, a key figure in the personal development industry who has worked with Tony Robbins, Jack Canfield, and was involved in the movie “The Secret”. Lisa also promotes a movie she’s part of, called “Zero Limits”, which will be available on Apple TV and Amazon Prime. She shares her experience with healing patches that helped her recover quickly from a twisted ankle, and encourages viewers to check out her website and book.
➡ In the 1970s, the narrator began her journey into personal development and spirituality, studying under her clairvoyant aunt and later joining a training program led by Werner, a trainer from Mind Dynamics. She was inspired by Werner’s teachings on personal responsibility, manifestation, and language, and saw potential for these teachings to reach a wider audience. After a vision of millions of people taking the training, she joined Werner’s team and helped grow the program, eventually becoming vice president. The book she wrote is a candid account of her experiences, the growth of the human potential movement, and the challenges faced by its leaders.
➡ The speaker, Marcia, describes her journey as a “light worker,” helping people and spreading positivity. She attended training sessions that taught her about personal power and responsibility, which she then shared with others, attracting them with her energy and joy. She explains the concept of transformation, comparing it to a caterpillar turning into a butterfly, and how it involves a complete change, not just superficial adjustments. Marcia’s journey expanded from San Francisco to various cities, growing in participants and frequency, and she emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and clearing past traumas to manifest a better life.
➡ The speaker shares their life experiences, including hardships like divorce, suicide of a loved one, and business failure. Despite these challenges, they found strength in self-discovery and connection to a higher power. They emphasize the importance of self-awareness, learning from mistakes, and not giving away personal power to others. The speaker also highlights the value of courage and standing up for what’s right, even when it’s difficult.
➡ The text discusses the importance of being true to oneself, facing fears, and taking responsibility for one’s actions. It emphasizes the need for open conversation and feedback to grow and improve. The text also explores the concept of consciousness, suggesting that as we evolve, we shift from a victim mentality to a self-centered one, then to a desire to make a difference, and finally to a state where we allow the universe to guide us. It concludes by highlighting the healing power of service to others.
➡ The speaker discusses the impact of the movie “The Secret” and the law of attraction, emphasizing the importance of being mindful of our thoughts as they can manifest into reality. They share their personal experiences with the film’s production and the profound effect it had on their life and others. The speaker also stresses the importance of listening to inner wisdom and recognizing when it’s time to move on from situations that no longer serve us. Lastly, they highlight the importance of understanding and managing money, as it’s crucial for survival and fulfilling our intended contributions to society.
➡ The text discusses the importance of understanding money and financial skills, challenging the negative perceptions often associated with wealth. It emphasizes that abundance isn’t just about being a millionaire, but having what you need when you need it. The text also talks about a book that deeply impacts its readers, making them laugh, cry, and reflect. Lastly, it highlights the importance of personal power and discernment, rather than giving power away to fit into a group or organization.

Hi, Lisa Schermerhorn here and thank you so much for watching my show, Where Truth Lies. Before we start this amazing interview with Marcia Martin, who was really the architect behind est, which is now the Landmark Institute, Tony Robbins, Jack Canfield, and even the movie the Secret. She was the powerhouse behind launching all of that and I feel a close kinship to her because she really paved the way for people like me to heal and do the work that I’m doing. And because of the movie the secret that launched Dr. Joe Vitale, he’s now produced a movie called Zero Limits, all about ho’, oponopono, forgiveness and expecting miracles.

I have a part in that movie and the movie will be launching September 25th on Apple TV and Amazon Prime. You can purchase it. I’ll have a link below. You can pre purchase it. I’m very excited for all of you to see. It’s not just a movie, it’s a movement. And for those of you who are interested in patches that reverse aging and help accelerate healing, I have an amazing story. About a month ago I tripped and fell down my stairs, twisted my ankle and I will edit in a photo of my ankle. It was quite large and swollen and black and blue.

I had to be somewh in Canada the next day and I didn’t even know if I’d be able to put my foot down, let alone drive because it was my right foot. I put the patches on and immediately the pain was almost gone and I was able to walk on was still swollen. I rested it and iced it. But the acceleration of healing. Two weeks later I was walking in Boston 11,000 steps and I’m not kidding. So these patches really work. If you are also interested in a session with me, I am a quantum healer and a hypnotist, you can click on my website mindset lisamindset.com and if you’re interested in a wave watch which is like a rife machine on your wrist, you can get a hundred dollars off with lisamindset.com I hope you enjoy this interview and always love your feedback.

Buy her book her book is called Sex, Power and Transformation. It I couldn’t put it down. I’ll have the link below for you to order it on Amazon. You will not you you will not be disappointed. Thank you. Hi, Lisa Schermerhorn here and this is my show Where Truth Lies on the Grassroots Warrior Network and I am thrilled and excited to introduce you to Marcia Martin. I just read her book and actually I have a special one because you just changed the subtitle on it. So it’s sex, power and transformation. The inside story behind the rise of the self help empire told by the woman who helped build it.

So for those of you who are familiar with Tony Robbins, the Landmark Institute. So EST was the precursor, which is for Earhart seminars training, which was the precursor to Landmark. Marsha’s done so many things. I have her bio right here, but she spent five decades. She looks much younger than she is, apparently. Obviously, I started when I was 2, everybody. So she was the key architect of the personal development industry’s biggest success stories. So she was behind the movie the Secret. From Werner Earhart to Jack Canfield. You’d worked also with Tony Robbins some. Really. You personally trained over 300,000 people in leadership, communication, and championship performance.

She’s a renowned coach and executive trainer and transformational thought leader. Her clients include global brands such as Warner Brothers, Capital One and the Hard Rock Hotels. She lives in Boca Raton with her three enlightened female companions. I love that. So, Marsha, welcome. I just, I. You are responsible in a roundabout way. We talked about this for, you know, for the transformation that I’ve had. So I would love. I don’t even. We’ll start at the beginning, but you, you came from some pretty humble, difficult beginnings. I did come from a pretty survival oriented childhood. My father was an alcoholic.

We moved all the time because he was always getting fired. I mean, there were good times too. Of course. Every child remembers the good times. But it was a scary upbringing and a scary childhood and I had to learn to take care of myself. And for some reason, even when I was a small girl, I looked at my father and people around me that were fighting or not getting along or, you know, mean. And I just said to myself, people need to know how to love. So from the very beginning, I’ve had this spark of light inside of me that wanted to make a contribution and help human beings learn how to be more effective and be more connected and be able to make a difference in the world.

Well, you absolutely have done that. And, you know, in reading your book, and I want people to know, I mean, Marcia’s really put herself out there. There’s no holds bars. I mean, I thought, well, if I’m going to tell the story as it really is and all of the people in it, and me too, you know, I’m gonna have to tell the good, the bad and the ugly, the light and the dark. And you certainly did so without giving away too much, because I want people to read the book, but I’d really like people to get a sense of, you know, what state you were in when you met him.

Werner, and a little bit about, you know, who, who he. He’s a very charismatic, very charismatic character. Brilliant, I would say, who had a lot, who did a lot of good and also had a lot of control issues. Well, we can all interpret what other people’s issues are, I’m sure, but I can just tell you from my own experience. First of all, I’d just like to say that the book really is a story of reinvention and the story of the human spirit. It’s my story, it’s my memoir. And it’s the story of a young girl who grows into womanhood in a man’s world and has to face power and deal with success and fame at a very young age.

And also betrayal and heartbreak and loss and lots of wins, but then lots of defeats. And it just happens that story takes place because I was at the forefront of the front lines of the beginning of and creating of and building of the self help industry, which is now a $48 billion industry. So I was there at the beginning and I wasn’t the one you were saying was the architect or was one of the. But I was one of the key architects. Sure. And there were only a handful of us in the beginning. And I happen to have the amazing story that not only was I vice president and one of the original founding members of est, which became Landmark and you know, I filled auditoriums for Werner.

I worked with Werner, I built that organization with him from inception when we had our first 30 person seminar workshop training to over hundreds and hundreds of thousands. I think by 1980 there must have been 700,000 graduates by the time that I left and there’s now 3.5 million graduates. So it’s the largest personal development company in the world and has done great impact and made amazing, like you said, transformed people’s lives, but then I had the opportunity to kind of be the Forrest Gump of transformation. What I mean by that, I just happened to be at a pivotal point at the beginning of many of the self help organizations and personal development programs.

I helped John Handley expand lifespring. I worked with Bob Hoffman in the Hoffman process to take him international. I worked like you said. I ran Tony Robbins business in the early years for two years and helped him launch his first book, Unlimited Power and help take him national. I worked with the Jack Canfield and co created the Transformational Leadership Council. I worked with Kitty Waters, who now goes by Alois Sir. Fleet Middleton and I helped her. We together created the Network for Transformational Leaders of Europe and Asia and Australia and New Zealand. And, I mean, it just goes on and on.

And this is that story of how it happened from my point of view of being a young girl and learning about myself, about growing into my own wisdom, about making my mistakes, and about the people around me who not only did great service and miracles and magic, but the story of also the manipulation and the power dynamics and the failures of what we did as well. So there’s always two sides. There’s the light and the dark. And I did my best book to share all of it. No, you did very well. And, you know, talk to me about the type of people that came in who would come into, you know, the U.S.

program. What were they looking for? And how. What kind of transformations were you able to see? So, first of all, you have to understand it was a different time. It was the beginning of the seventies. So we first. I work with Werner Erhart, who was the founder of est, which became Landmark Forum. I met him in February of 1971, and he was a trainer for another company, company at the time, Mind Dynamics, which was founded by Alexander Everett. And that first training that he led in San Francisco, I participated in. There were only 30 of us now.

I came out of that training and I actually had had a vision. And, you know, it had nothing to do with anybody else. It was just me. I had previously been studying with my aunt, who was a clairvoyant healer. That’s right. And so she. I was an intern for her. And she had taught me the. She taught me metaphysics, she taught me energy. She taught me how healing happens. She taught me how to create intentions. She taught me how to manifest my dreams. She taught me how to meditate. So I was already on a path or a spiritual quest myself at a very, very young age.

I was only with her. I was like, barely 20 years old, practically a child. And I want to make a side note for that, because I’ve been doing this work 25 years, and when I first started, you could bar, say, Reiki at a cocktail party. Yeah. Because people would say, anybody? No, you really had to hide. Because I remember, like, my ex husband was like, don’t tell anyone what you do. And I’m like, well, how am I gonna grow my business? And people would be like, do you have a back door to your wellness center? Because I don’t want anyone seeing.

And that was in the late 90s. So I can’t even imagine, because There was no place to train for those things. Now it’s like everywhere you go. Well, we created an industry, right? Right. Yes. And when I worked with my aunt. So when I first met Werner, I was excited. Not so much of what I would get out of the training, but I was excited that I could see he was doing something that I had learned from my aunt about teaching people personal responsibility, teaching people how to create and manifest, teaching people how language work, teaching people to, you know, take and come from their own voice and their own power into the world to be able to manifest and make a contribution.

And so I thought, oh, I think this is going to reach the masses. Right. I wanted to be part of that. And for really kind of ironically and kind of interestingly. And when I first left the first training, I was walking down Geary street in San Francisco, which is like a big highway in the middle of the city. And all of a sudden, I saw in front of me millions of people taking this training. And it was a vision that kind of just opened up for me, and I could almost, like, see in the future. And I was like, whoa, this is kind of cool.

And I was so young, you know, I was just like, oh, I just must be all enthusiastic about this. This is nice. But actually, it happened, you know, I started working for Werner just a month later, officially, and soon after that, we created asked in October of 1971, and I became the vice president, and I was in charge of the communication registration division, which meant I was actually responsible for fulfilling trainings and events that s produced. So that’s really sales, marketing, production, promotion, pr, all of that area is what I was responsible for. And like I said, we went.

You know, I’m just learning on the job and learning from Werner. And Werner was brilliant and still is. I mean, he’s 90 years old. He just had his 90th birthday. I really care for him and love him. And like any human being, including myself, you know, we have our own patterns, we have our own karma, we have our own lessons to learn, and we make our own mistakes. So the book is kind of the story of those patterns and how patterns work. And especially me and my patterns and what I saw with leaders, right? Not just Werner, but many leaders, you know, they have to really face power.

And it gets to be. My thing is that we should open up space for people to discover who they are so that they can get in touch with their own self and be close to and hear their own wisdom and have their own answer. But what happens? I think a lot of times is people start giving you their answer exactly. As if it’s the answer for everything. And so there’s the methodology or the experience, the training itself, which is fabulous, but then there’s the organization around it and how one delivers that particular methodology, and that can get into some trouble with people’s patterns and ego and all of that.

So, and I do want to say this, that the book, there’s lots of times in this book it sounds very dark and mysterious, but this is a funny book. It’s really, I mean, I have adventures that people could not believe that I’ve had. And so it’s, it’s one of those, it’s kind of like a thriller. You, you can’t stop reading this book. Oh, it’s, it’s exactly right. I could not stop reading it. I, I, My daughter was like, oh, my God, you’re halfway through that book. We just started our books that we flew to Chicago and I was reading on the plane, and she’s like, my God, mom, look how much you’ve read.

I couldn’t put it down. And it reads like a thriller. Like, it reads like a novel. I felt like I was in there with you. Yeah. I felt like I was coming along for a ride, like just peeking over your shoulder. And I love that about it. I loved how raw you were and how honest and even about yourself. Like, this isn’t a book about pointing fingers at anyone. This is just an expose, really, about what you observed, at least from your perspective. It really is my story and how I felt and what I saw and what happened to me and who was there and what we did together and how it all happened.

And it is, it, the book is magical. I have, I, this book, it hap, it kind of emerged. And everybody says the same thing. I can’t put this book down. I mean, even I have a girlfriend that got mad at me because she wanted to read the book at the beach, and she was leaving to go to the beach in a week, and she was thinking, oh, I’ll have the book to read for my vacation. And she picked it up and started reading just the prologue, and she couldn’t put it down. You know, now what do I read on my vacation? No, it’s brilliant.

And, and the thing, the thing that, you know, how so, so going back to what we were talking about in the 70s, this was a brand new concept. The whole idea of therapy or working on yourself or looking inward. I don’t even. Wasn’t even a concept. So how, as someone who is In a brand new field used. What kind of language were you able to use to draw people in? Because I’m telling you, I took me a long time when I started doing the same kind of training you did, the clairvoyant work, you know, metaphysical work, all of that.

And I had to come up with new language because I could never explain to people what I did because people would think I was crazy. So it’s very interesting because that’s not how it happened. It wasn’t like we figured out a way to share it. Here’s what happened. First of all, you have to understand the 70s. The 70s in San Francisco, we were flower children. That’s true. Wearing embroidered shirts and carrying guitars. I remember I used to sit in Golden Gate park with my guitar and I put my floppy leather hat, cowboy hat out in front of me if somebody wanted to put some change.

And, you know, we were just such flower children. I remember people would walk by me and looked like they needed the money more than me, so I would give them my change. It was just a crazy time. You know, we were demonstrating in the streets about Vietnam, and we wanted peace and love. And it was communal living. A bunch of people would all live together. And it was the beginning of the best parts of drugs because it wasn’t heavy and terrible. It was just, you know, some of the guys came back from Vietnam and had marijuana, and then marijuana became the thing.

And people were doing exploration. And Michael Murphy was starting Echelon and Big Sur, and the hot tubs were full of naked people talking about spirituality. Silva was doing Silva control and teaching you how to do that. And it was just little pockets of people. And it was called human potential. That was the promise then. It was that you are not experiencing your full potential. And these are ways that you can open that up. So it was kind of exciting and exploring that kind of a thing. And for me personally, because I had studied with my aunt and I was all so excited.

And I called myself, not out loud to anybody else, but my aunt, and I called myself a light worker. You know, like. Like you’re saying you’re a reiki healer, but you couldn’t tell anybody. And we couldn’t tell anybody either. It’s like being a white witch, right? I’ve been called that too. And so, you know, I was just kind of wondering, wandering around, helping people and doing my best thing and, you know, wearing my flowered short skirts and flowered T shirts. And it was, you know, going to rock concerts. I saw everybody in San Francisco, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix.

I mean, everybody. The Doors, the, you know, Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane. Just like everybody. That was the vibe of San Francisco. So what happened was, once I took the training, then I thought, oh, this is going to be something that everybody can learn. This special way of being in touch with one’s own personal power and being responsible. And I would go into restaurants. I remember we. We started our trainings. Werner had a. One of the people that worked for him, Hanukkah, Spitz, had an apartment. And we did our trainings there. We did our workshops there after the training.

So there’s about 30 graduates. We would come to Hanukkah’s house, and we would sit on the floor in a circle, and Werner would tell us advanced information, and we’d be able to ask him questions, and we could bring guests. And I remember Werner used to go around and say, how did you get here? How did you find out about us? And I would have three or four or five or six guests, because they would say to him, well, I’m a bus driver. And Marcia got on my bus. And I don’t know how to explain it, but when I saw her, I wanted to have whatever she had, because I was just full of this light and energy.

And one woman, I remember saying, I was in the restroom of a restaurant, and Marcia came in. I had a headache. And she put her hands over me and started talking and told me to relax. And pretty soon my headache was gone. And I looked at her, and I wanted to have whatever she had. It was an experience, right? There wasn’t a word that we said, this is going to do that. It was just like, what’s going on with you? You seem so joyous. You seem so happy. You seem so enthusiastic. What are you doing? I want to do that, too.

And I remember when I was leading guest seminars, when people would bring guests, and we would put the guests in the bedroom, and I would sit on the. Myself and Laurel and Hanukkah were really the ones that led the guest seminars. Then one of us would lead the guest seminar, and we would sit on the desk in the bedroom, and the guests would sit on the bed. And that was the guest seminar. Right before we went to hotels or auditoriums, and it just kept expanding. But I remember the first two years, I would say the purpose of the training, and then I would tell them the purpose.

And it was to transform the way in which you experience living. And people would say, transform. Transformation. What is that? Every hand would go up and say, well, what does transformation mean? Now think about that. Because it’s such a buzzword now. And it’s such, you know, what are you talking about? Transformation. Everything is transforming everything else. Right? And I didn’t know. I was, you know, at the beginning, I was just like, well, you know, everything gets better. And then I went to Werner and I said, what does transformation mean? What does it mean? And he said, well, it’s kind of like.

It’s just like when a butterfly, you know, a caterpillar turns into a butterfly, right? Well, so I would say, oh, it’s just like when a butter. A caterpillar turns into a butterfly. And that would be enough for people to understand. And we would go on. Right, right. And I say, just take it. You’ll find out. And. And because it was so. It was such a great experience that we didn’t have any problem saying, just come and do it now. Later, I found out as I grew older and studied different things that a caterpillar into a butterfly is not the easiest.

And it’s very dangerous. And this is a serious change. Right? Transformation is that caterpillar has to dissolve into a soup. Yes. Not like a caterpillar’s legs becomes a butterfly’s wings. Right. Or eyes become their eyes. It’s not like that. It’s not change. It’s real transformation, where it goes back to its original source, liquid soup and recon constitutes itself into a new species. And not all butterflies make it from the caterpillar. No. Dangerous, dangerous path. And so is enlightenment. Looking at your own beliefs, your patterns, your thoughts, the way that you’ve constructed life, your interpretations, being willing to take responsibility for them.

Kind of like shedding everything and going back to your original soup. Right? And reconstituting your values and your beliefs to a higher state of being that you can produce a better world and a better life. And that’s what the training did. That’s what my experience of what the training does and what real transformation is, is when a person finds a new part of themselves and can get in touch with that part of themselves and begin to just be a more effective human being. And so it was kind of like the Pied Piper then. You know, I just walked down the street and people would follow and, you know, we just kept getting bigger and bigger.

We went from 30 people to 65 people in the training, then 125 people in the TR, then 250 in the training. Then we went from San Francisco to Los Angeles, and then Los Angeles to Aspen, and Aspen to Honolulu. And then we went from one training a month in those cities, to two trainings a month, to four trainings a month, to, you know, it just was really a ride. And I think people will enjoy in the book, because it. It is like that in the book, I think, that I was able to. I didn’t use AI And I didn’t use a ghostwriter.

I just shared from my experience. And of course, I had an editor who would say, you know, don’t you want to tell this story first or that story second or the grammar? But this really was more that. It just came out of me. And that’s why I say the book is magical, because you are there when you read it. Yes. It is like, you’re right there. Right? I totally agree. I totally agree. I was in awe of watching, you know, reading, and in my mind, I was watching the whole process grow because I look at, you know, when you talk about the caterpillar becoming the butterfly and the dissolving, it’s not for the faint of heart.

Because from the time we’re born, we get programmed from everyone and everything around us, from our parents to our teachers, through our school, through our culture, all of the things. And then there’s inherited. We inherit trauma. We inherit things that we don’t even have a conscious awareness of. So there’s stuff that comes up in our lives that we don’t even know where it comes from. So to be able to go through. And here’s the magic in all of it by clearing all of that, that’s when you become, like this force of manifestation because there’s nothing in your way, and you start to think of things, and they start to happen.

Yep. And what’s really amazing, I think, and unique about my story particularly, is, first of all, absolutely, I had my patterns. You know, I had a very abusive father, and not physically abusive, but mentally abusive. He physically abused my mother, and I would see that. But so I was always trying to please him and get his approval. And so that became one of the things in my life, is to have a Prince Charming come along that would take care of me and, you know, if I was just loved enough, everything would work out. Exactly. A lot of women have that.

A lot of. Especially in this world, which is still very much a man’s world, we as women have to kind of find how do we use our voice? How do we find our voice, first of all, and then how do we use our voice? And it’s a scary journey. So, I mean, I’m sure the guys have their own thing, but I’M just saying I’m not a guy. I’m a girl. So, you know, I have my own thing, and that was one of them. And so there’s those patterns. But the interesting thing for me is I got caught so young in the actual spiritual training that I didn’t have to take my patterns and have them go for the next 20 or 30 years.

And my life totally break down to the point where I discovered, oh, I need to look at life a different way. Right, right. That’s what happens for most people, is you just go and go and go until it doesn’t work for so long that something takes you down and you have this insight that you need to look at things a different way. No, it was interesting because it’s not like I didn’t have life thrown at me because I had lots of things, as you know, in the book. I had a divorce. I had a stepchild that I love so much commit suicide.

I lost a business. You know, I was at the top of my success. I mean, I have had those kinds of experiences, but I was able to handle them in such a way because I first had. Before I had all of those experiences, the experience of finding myself. And so I had myself and my own power and my connection to a higher source already there. That’s key. It was key. And so I kind of did life in reverse, which now everybody says, yeah, you’re. You’re getting younger too. This is weird, but that is critical. And I love the way you point that out, because I was almost 40 when I had my breakdown.

I had my. My caterpillar butterfly experience. And I think most people, you know, you. You were able to start younger to. To rewind and un. I don’t even know what the word, but it’s like a rewinding of. Of patterns. And you were able to do that early on, but also as a woman in a man’s world, because I’ve noticed in the world, when a woman tries to be like a powerful man, it doesn’t work very well. No. So how did you. Yeah, this is the thing. And that’s part of the story, isn’t it? Right. Like, right.

As you saw, I tried lots of ways to be before I realized, well, that didn’t really work. Yeah. But I have an interesting perspective on it. I’m able to tell the story about it, and that is really the story of the human spirit. I think in the end, what really comes through is the possibility of reinvention, the possibility of if you just persist and keep going, you know goodness will prevail. And there is light at the end of the tunnel. It’s not the train, really. Just trust in yourself. Come from yourself. Get aligned with whatever that higher power is for you.

And that would. That trumps everything. Alignment. So. But it’s a good story. It’s like a movie. It is. It is. And. And here’s the other thing, and you touched on it a little bit when. When we’re lost and we’re in those very vulnerable spaces and someone very charismatic comes along with what seems like the answer to everything, so many people will then say, if I can be like them, then I’ll be fine. And I went through that process myself. I wanted to become this person who started me on hypnosis and all the other training. I’m like, I want to train everything.

I want to do everything that you did. And then suddenly I did all, like, five different trainings, and I’m like, well, I can’t be you now. Who am I? So it’s that. It’s that transformation. But there’s also that key where people have a tendency to give their power away. And then they put these people up and give them a God, that there’s a God complex that comes in. How do we do the work and avoid that trap? I don’t think that you avoid. And I’m not sure if it’s a trap more than. It’s just part of the journey.

Okay. I think that if you are aware and you’re willing to look yourself at your own shadow, at your own darkness, at your own fears, at your own missteps, and I think that’s one of the things the book does and why it’s so powerful for people is I have a lot of missteps and frailties and things that I did wrong, too, but I learned lessons from them. And I think all of the people that were in my story also had their own frailties and their own missteps and learned lessons from them, some more powerfully than others.

But that’s part of the journey. And I think the misstep really is when you try to say it’s not there. You see, when it’s. It’s like, no, I have the answer. And if you just do it my way, then you know and you know, and you start to create this box inside of. And it’s the power dynamics of here. You’re giving a training or a personal development talk or a way of a system or something. The methodology itself, the power of discovering who you are. And there’s Lots of different ways to find that. Really some valuable courses and experiences out there and people that are wise and that have earned the right to share this wisdom.

So there is the wisdom itself. Yes. Then there is how do you deliver the wisdom? Because if you create a system that is totally, totally opposite from the thing that you’re teaching, you know, if all of a sudden you’re teaching how to be free and you create some system of control to distribute it, then it’s a little crazy. And I think people aren’t willing to say, oh, I did that in a way that didn’t work. If you saw that, that was the whiskers, I was just gonna say, that wasn’t ghost. It was one of the enlightened beings, feline beings.

Riley is just determined to be on this podcast. So I think that if you are willing to look. And that was one of the reasons I wrote this book. You know, I’ve been saying for 50 years, I’m going to write a book. And I haven’t even been saying it. People have been saying to me, you have to write a book, right? It’s not just about EST or Landmark or the human potential movement. It’s my life. People have said, oh, my God, these stories are amazing. And I’ve learned so much from your sharing them. You have to write a book.

And so for 40, 45, 50 years, I’ve been saying, yes, I know Riley, again, is with her whiskers. But then I had a conversation with a young woman or an older woman now, who happened to be involved with a personal development program and was very closed to what I should share in my book and wanted to protect the person, the methodology, the company from anybody knowing what, you know, I might say where. Where I was coming from is if I ever write a book, I’m going to write it about what happened, right? Not about something that should be said in a certain way so that somebody gets a certain perception.

And what happened wasn’t all rosy. What happened was miraculous. What happened were miracles. What happened was magic. It was amazing. And what happened were some very dark things and some mistakes and some abuse and some things that shouldn’t maybe have happened. But it’s not like you can go back and change that. But I think what you can do is at least confront it and be willing to say, this is something maybe I learned from, but I’m not sure I should have done it this way, Right? And when I realized that they were so closed in their point of view and they were a person who I had trained Someone who had trained them.

And in fact, I had even trained them. And I thought, you know, like, how did this happen? I felt like a grandmother whose grandchildren were on the wrong path kind of. Or didn’t have the whole story, didn’t know their history. And I thought, you know, I got off that call with this woman, and I started writing my book. Book. And I did not stop for a year. And the only reason I wrote this book, really, is because of that conversation. And that conversation was to tell me I shouldn’t write the book. Right. I mean, I’m just saying.

Sorry, but, you know, you’re the reason I wrote the book in the first place, so there. That funny. Yeah. No, you know, and what’s interesting is through the book, there’s a moment where you see. You see the light bulb go off in your head when you go from a place where you are. Are giving your power away. And you’re so, so much part of this one organization, even to the point where it was dictating your relationship. Yeah, that. And. And a lot of people did that. And then also later in life, in another organization, I faced betrayal.

And at the. At the. And then I learned how people are so afraid to stand up for what they see. Yes. You know, that they can see it right in front of themselves that this isn’t right. But I don’t want to get involved. Oh, don’t involve me. Oh, well, yeah, I. I agree with you, and this shouldn’t have happened, and this shouldn’t be the way it is. But don’t. Let’s. Let’s not rock the boat. Right. Or let’s not have me say anything because somebody else might disagree with me and they might have more. It’s a very insidious kind of thing that goes on for you to discover your courage.

And we need courage now more than anything. We need people to stand up and be their own self, have their own answer and contribute their own voice, because it’s a crazy world right now, and we need every voice, and some of those voices won’t agree with each other, but if there’s no willingness to have the conversation in a civil way. Yes. And to really take responsibility for. I. I’m taking in the book as much as I could, responsibility for the harm that I did, for the things that I felt that weren’t really right. And at the same time, it was scary to do that.

It was scary to say, yeah, here’s what I. And you’ve been. And you’ve been attacked for it, too. I have been Attacked for it. It’s true. But that’s okay. You know, for the first time in my life I feel. Because I. It’s like a rerun, you know, and the first time it would happen, I would be afraid and get quiet and get smaller and. And this time I’m just riding the boat and it happens to be some waves. Yeah, but you just touched upon something that I think people need to hear again when you talk about courage, because.

And I’m a strong believer of this as well. Courage is the power and the strength to be yourself. And being yourself should be easy and effortless because it’s just you being you. Yet it’s the most terrifying thing of all. And I find that fascinating. It is fascinating, I think also. Well, being you, you also have to have the willingness to get feedback. Feedback because someone else can see how your being might not work or might be not of value or you could do it better. But not only are we not willing to be ourselves and have a voice and say what we feel, we’re not willing to get any feedback to see if what we’re being is even working.

And so it’s like a lot of the yarn of the ball is tied up and so different things. And I think what you’re saying is that’s where you start. And then you’re willing, you know, to discover things that don’t work or maybe things that a point of view or a perception that you have that is off kilter or not on the path of aliveness, or not on the path of love, or not on the path of, you know, transformation. A lot of people call themselves transformational leaders. And I want to say. Can you look up the word in the dictionary, please? Well, because we all have shadows.

Right. And if you haven’t done your work, the most dangerous person is someone who’s unconscious about their shadow in leadership. Yeah. And that goes with politics. It’s everything. Because they have completely no awareness of their own behavior. And that shadow can be six years old. Yeah. So your six year old is making your choices and your partner’s picking your jobs, picking your friends. And when it’s wounded six year old. It’s not pretty. No, it’s not. And. And that’s the journey of life, isn’t it? Things aren’t pretty necessarily all the time. It’s a journey of learning and lessons and you have to be willing to take responsibility and you have to be willing to be aware of them and you have to be willing to consider other points of view and.

And it’s you know, living a life and learning who you are is not like, for the faint of heart, like you said. And. And here’s the other side of it, is that sometimes being yourself means you’re not going to fit in with the group anymore. Yeah. And you lose friendships, you may lose relationships. There’s a lot at stake, but what you gain is exponentially greater. But in that moment of shedding that shell is terrifying because everything that you know and think of is true and real to you. Dissolves. I like to look at it two different ways.

I explain it. One is you have three faces. The person that you pretend to be. Right. Is usually the. The face in front. Yeah. And you pretend to be. Okay. You know, we pretend to be confident. We pretend that we know what we’re doing. We pretend to. Why do we pretend? Because there’s a second face behind your pretense, which is who you’re afraid that you are. You know, we pretend that we know what we’re doing because we really are afraid we don’t know what we’re doing. We pretend that we’re really confident and everything’s okay because we’re afraid somebody’s going to find out that we’re not lovable.

Right. Right. And then behind that fear face, there is who you really are. Now, here’s the thing. The only way you can get in touch with who you really are is if you drop your pretense and face your fears. But when you face your fears, it feels like the fear is real. Yes. And I think that’s the gift that I have had. And kind of the way that I like to teach is I’m able to be with people in a way that they trust me and feel safe enough to drop their pretense and really share what’s going on with them, which is at first their fears and so that they can face them.

Look at them. And there will be a way that that fear dissolves a bit when you face it and you get in touch with even just a little bit in who you really are. And it’s like a print, pin prick of light in the great darkness. But that’s how powerful light is. As you can see, even the smallest little star in a dark night. So once a person gets in touch with that part of themselves, who they really are, what’s interesting is who you really are looks exactly like what you’re pretending. But the experience is totally different when you’re pretending.

It doesn’t feel like it feels when you’re actually inside of the experience itself. And know who you are. The other way I like to explain it is that consciousness, as you said, expands. So a first level of consciousness is kind of what I call victimhood. It’s when you look at life as if it’s working on you, it’s affecting you. It’s, you know. And I’m the victim of it. Well, usually in that position, something will happen where you just have a breakdown to the point where you just say, this isn’t going to happen anymore. I’m going to do something about it.

And your consciousness shifts or expands to a place where you get in touch with. You can handle something, you can direct something. It’s not like you’re the effect you’re going to make happen. However, at that level of consciousness, what’s happening is what you’re making happen is for you. It’s a me, me, me, me. I want cars, I want houses, I want whatever, right? And then something happens where you get to a point in that world where you go, is this all there is? Because the things that you think you want aren’t what you really want. You can never get enough of reality what you really don’t want.

There’s never going to be enough money. There’s never going to be enough titles. There’s never got to give you satisfaction and love and fulfillment. There’s something else. And so you start to have a higher purpose. You want to. There’s a reason that you’re around. You think and you think, well, you know, it’s not just for this. I want to make a difference. I want to contribute to the world. And so that’s kind of the next space that you get to which is making a difference. But then something really special happens. And I think this is kind of my life has been.

I started off here. I don’t know why, but I kind of started off at this last phase, which is when you operate from having a higher purpose long enough, the universe notices and starts to use you. You. Yes. Now, when you’re starting to be used, that’s interesting because. And that’s what my book is about. It’s about my journey of being used. Because, you know, I got attached just like everybody else did to money, to men, to power, to whatever, and just wanted to stay, wanted it to work. And the universe, you know, said, oh, you’re not watching the signals that you should move on from this.

So we’re just gonna take you down, girl. You know? And something happens that has to wake you up to the point that you realize, oh, this is not Where I should be. I need to move on. And so I’ve gotten better. Not totally great yet, but better at listening to the signals and staying on the path and not having my ego drive me, but having the higher source of light, whatever we want to call that, is the thing that makes us all who we are, drive me. And so I think that’s part of the story as well.

I absolutely love that. And it’s interesting because in the tenets of Alcoholics Anonymous or any of those addiction programs is being of service. Yes. It’s a huge part of healing. It’s not about making enough money to have that Ferrari that you want House on the ocean. It’s go be of service and do something to feel like you are of worth, worthy. So that is really amazing. And then, you know, once you start to do all of this work, what, and this leads into the law of attraction, then you start to create that which is the beginning of the secret.

Secret didn’t quite go into everything, but it. It started a movement. Yes, it did. Of the law of attraction, of your thoughts and creating. And I’m finding that in my life now, I think of things and they happen. So you really need to be careful about what you think about. That’s true. That’s true. So that is such a good movie. It’s a basic movie, and you’re right, it’s a beginner’s movie. But it’s so profound in its simplicity. You know, Rhonda Byrne, who produced and made that movie, brilliant television filmmaker from Australia, and I’m honored to say a friend called me because Jack Canfield and I had started the Transformational Leadership Council.

And by the third meeting, Rhonda had heard about us and thought that the transformational leaders would be good for this movie. And she called and contacted me because I was running the Transformational Leadership Council, tlc, and she said she’d like to come and film us all. And so I called Jack, who I’ve known for 40 years. I mean, Jack and I are like brothers and sisters. And so Jack says, no, don’t let her come. And he. He was right because he said the. The transformational leaders get carried away with television and cameras, and if she comes and has a television crew, we’re going to be all concerned about her rather than the meeting.

And. And, you know, there is a piece of truth of that, I must say. And. And I can laugh about that. You know, we’re all like, we all want to be on TV kind of a thing, right? So I almost called her Back to tell her she couldn’t come to film us to make the Secret. And I heard a voice, and the voice said, and I was used to this because of my training with my aunt, right? And missions that I have and the inner kind of knowledge and wisdom that I’m in touch with. So that had been something since I’m 20 years old that had been part of who I am.

And the voice said, she’s supposed to be there. So I called Jack back. I told him, I said, you know, you owe me for this one, because that movie would not have used us. I’m sure Rhonda would have found a different group of people make the movie with. But she came to TLC because I told Jack she needs to be there. And as a result of that, I got the extraordinary experience of organizing the film shoot, because Jack said, okay, but if she comes, you have to take care of it and organize it. And so, you know, it all works out the way that it should.

But I think that it’s just, you know, that movie was meant to be simple. Rhonda and I sat for hours, and she would talk to me about what was important, especially when she made the book. She said, it has to be said in such a way that a sixth grader can understand it. So it is the foundation of the movement. It is the basics. It is quite profound. But it’s not the whole story. It’s not the whole thing. But it starts the journey for many people. It was for me, and I have to say from my heart, the work that you did as a groundbreaker, because I was in your wake.

I was right behind you, in your wake. And I would not be where I am today without all of. You know, I look at all the dots you’ve connected and all the people, and I was right there. I mean, I remember Dr. Joe Vitale, who was in that movie. It launched his career. His book, Zero Limits Limits. I read his book, then I connected with him and ended up in his movie Zero Limits that’s coming out. There was all of this snowball effect that happened through that law of attraction and learning to surrender. Because one of the hardest things, I think, that people have to understand is we set goals.

But what if God has another plan for us? That’s what I’m saying. In terms of when you are being used. Yes, exactly. If what’s using you, whatever you call that, whether you say God or spirit or light or whatever, is the higher power for you when you’re being used. If you don’t listen, get Ready to have, be smacked around a bit and have it, have some kind of circumstance happens to get you back on the path. And so all I can say is listen, listen to your wisdom. It’s. It’s so true. Because I always say there’s, there’s multiple taps on the shoulder.

Hello. And you’re uncomfortable even in the place of a job that you’re not supposed to be in. Yeah. All of a sudden you’ve been in this industry or for the company for 20 years and all of a sudden it’s like a shoe that doesn’t fit right. And you go in and all of a sudden I’m like, why is this so uncomfortable? Why is it I don’t like being here anymore. Why is it I feel so suddenly unhappy? That’s the way it works. So you get the, the taps and then when you don’t listen to the taps and take the responsibility yourself to Change that, the 2×4 happens.

You get fired. You get rear ended while you’re driving. Universe knows when you’ve completed something and contributed what you needed to contribute for the value that it had. And when you become bigger than that space. Yes. And if you try to hold on to that old thing that you’ve become bigger than, it’s going to hurt. Yeah. Best just to let it go. And you know, we all want to hold on to the company we’ve been with or the company that we created or the, the friends that we had. It’s those, you know, it’s so comfortable. And when we see that really, we know inside.

We know in an inner way long before we even think about it. But we know we need to move on. I knew I needed to move on in my marriage and yet I tried to hold on and make it work. And you know, something really horrific happened that ended my marriage. And still my ex husband is a friend, but he. I feel like we’re, we’re better off being friends than being married. And I knew long before we ended our marriage that it should have ended. And if I had listened and moved on, but I held on.

I kept. You know, I did that with an organization when I should have, you know, an organization I created. I should have left. I should have turned it over. I should have gone, moved on. I had a higher purpose. And you know, the things that the universe can do to, to make you let go. If you’re not willing to let go, it’s not worth it. Just let go. It is. But here’s, here’s the thing. And I know a lot of people will struggle because there’s a path. And it’s like when you’re. When you’re climbing Mount Everest and most people quit when there’s 10% left, like, you’re right about there.

So there’s one part where you’re on a journey to overcome adversity and to make it. And then there’s the, I shouldn’t be here anymore. I need to switch. And so the discernment of how do I know the difference? Very good, Lisa. I love that. That’s a really good distinction to be aware of, for sure. And I always say it’s the following of the heart, right? The following of your soul and your passion versus hanging on for dear life like that Kilroy was here, you know, just hanging on by your fingertips. And sometimes it does feel like that, though, when you’re.

When you’re overcoming the adversity, but it’s a path you’re meant to be on. I agree. And I want to add something about money, because what I’m finding is it’s an important thing to get a skill set at, because a lot of us were raised about serving and having passion and being true to our passion and being of service to others and making a difference and all of that is great. But if you don’t have money handled, if you don’t have the skill set of how one is responsible for and creates and understands the flow of money, then ultimately you won’t be able to provide the contribution or do the service that you were intended to do in the first place.

So make that part of. It doesn’t have to be the most important, but it should be. You know, on a scale of four or five things, it should be a. The top of, right? Because we need to survive, right? We need. We need the foundation of a home, you know, and. And all of those things. Otherwise you’re in. In that mode of survival instead of thriving. And more than that, because you can get past surviving, right? But what you really need money for is impact of it. So if you want to make a huge impact, then you need to be responsible to learn financial skills.

And that’s one of the things, you know, I didn’t learn right away in my life. I’m still learning that. Right? But it. I just wanted to throw that in for people to know. It’s, oh, service and kindness and love and, you know, altruism and all of that. But, yeah, money to everybody. I, I totally, I totally agree with you on this. And I think one of the biggest issues that people have is how we have been programmed about money. When’s the last time you saw a movie or a television program that portrayed a wealthy person in a good light? Ever? Yeah, ever so.

And people will quote from the Bible things that are against money. So there’s this programming that’s happened, and I did a workshop and I had this mansion behind me on the screen. And I asked everyone, who here wants to make a million dollars a year? And everyone raises their hand. And then I asked someone to tell me, Tell me about the people who live in that house. Oh, they hate each other. They’re getting a divorce. Their kids are all on drugs. And then I looked at them and I said, how can you attract to these things if you believe that money is bad, that money is evil, that people who have money are miserable? And.

And I think that’s a big part of. Because we will continue to sabotage ourselves until we get comfortable of being worthy and deserving and. And deserving and understanding that it’s just a conduit. It’s. It’s just an exchange of energy. But it feels much bigger than that. Again, patterns, Right? Right. And abundance comes in all forms. It doesn’t mean that everyone is meant to be a millionaire. No, it. Abundance is everything that you need just suddenly shows up and trusting that everything you need, all of a sudden that bill gets paid. All of a sudden the trip you get invited to go and.

And all expenses paid. That’s abundance as well. Yes, absolutely. You and I are on the same boat. Oh, I know. I love talking to you. So anything about the book or anything that you’re doing that we didn’t touch on that you wanted to hit? No, I think the book is a really. First of all, it’s a fun read. Yes, it is an interesting read. I had a friend who read it and he said I laughed so hard I thought I was going to fall off my chair. I also cried real tears. It touched my heart so deeply.

And then he said, I got so angry, I wanted to hit something or somebody. Yeah. Then the last thing he said is, it really made me think deeply and reflect on so many things. It’s still with me. And I thought to myself, what else could you want in a book? I mean, come on. It’s totally, totally, totally. I, again, I couldn’t put it down. I think there’s so much wisdom in it, and it is the reflection because I looked at my life and there were parallels. I’m like, what did I do that was similar? Because I had people who I had in My life as mentors that I gave my power away to and finally had to come to terms.

And there were things that were similar, not quite to the degree that you had, that there was backlash about, because I was like, no, this doesn’t work for me anymore. I’ve moved on. I need something else. And you know, we’re tribal. We as a society tend to be tribal. So we need to be part of this group. And when we leave, there’s this whole survival thing that happens, you know. And I think the great teachers and there’s some great transformational leaders on the planet today, and many of them are colleagues of mine and I respect their work.

And the great teachers don’t want you to give your power away to them. The great teachers know that what their job is is to have you get in touch with your power. And you know, maybe they go off course every once in a while, but they find their way back. So it does service to the teachers as well as yourself to be responsible, to be in touch with your own power. And that’s. And that’s the discernment. And for me, that was my biggest journey, was learning who I was and to have discernment and really discover who I was and stop, you know, worrying about what other people thought and stop giving my power away in order to fit into an organization or a group and that or family.

Right. Well, people can get the book if they go to Amazon, you know, bestseller right away. Yes. Hottest new releases and both USA and Canada. And it’s Sex, Power and Transformation. And it’s the inside story of the rise of the self help industry told by the woman who helped build it. Yes. People want to get a hold of me, they can go to my website, marcia martin.comm a r C I A M A r t I n.com and they can find out about the book there. There’s a tab that says the book. I encourage you all and please, you know, I got to go on and do my review so I’m excited to get it up there because I think this needs to be in the hands of as many people as we can because I think you’ve really set such that the bar, well, not so much the bar high, but the rawness of how you tell your story was so beautiful and I think everyone can get lessons out of it and reflect on their own lives.

Well, Marcia, thank you. This was such a treasure and a treat and I look forward to reconnecting with you another time, hopefully soon. Thank you, Lisa, thank you and thank your viewers. And God bless you all. God bless you, Sa.
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