Upside Down Truths: Challenging Everything You Thought You Knew

➡ The text discusses the importance of critical thinking and the dangers of blindly following mainstream narratives. It highlights the work of Masterpiece, a company that removes toxins from the body, and introduces Mark Gober, a Princeton graduate and former investment banker who has written about our understanding of the world being upside down. The text criticizes universities for hindering growth and not recognizing innovative thinkers outside their paradigm. It also mentions the benefits of peptides for weight loss and muscle building, and ends with a conversation with Mark Gober about his book on consciousness and the upside down world.
➡ The author shares his journey of exploring consciousness and reality, which led him to write a book challenging the traditional belief that consciousness comes from the physical body. He suggests that consciousness might not originate from the body, opening up possibilities for psychic phenomena and the afterlife. He also criticizes universities for being behind in cutting-edge knowledge and limiting freedom of thought. Lastly, he questions established scientific theories like the Big Bang, suggesting that our understanding of the universe might need to be rethought.
➡ The text discusses the importance of questioning foundational assumptions in fields like medicine and cosmology. It highlights the need to consider all factors affecting a situation, using the analogy of a garden where focusing only on pests and ignoring other elements like soil and sunlight can lead to poor plant health. The text also emphasizes the importance of considering multiple causes of illness rather than focusing on a single cause. Lastly, it encourages questioning established truths and exploring alternative explanations.
➡ The text discusses the importance of critical thinking and questioning narratives, using examples from history and current events. It highlights how people can unknowingly propagate false narratives due to lack of critical thinking. The text also explores the concept of compassion without discernment, where well-intentioned actions may not actually be compassionate. Lastly, it emphasizes the need for everyone to flourish and the dangers of an elitist mindset that seeks to control under the guise of protection.
➡ The text discusses the concept of consciousness and its potential to transcend the physical body, suggesting that we might be interconnected in ways we don’t fully understand. It uses the example of twins who can sense each other’s feelings or experiences, even when physically separated, as evidence of this interconnectedness. The text also explores the idea of remote viewing, a phenomenon where one can perceive something far away in space or time, suggesting that this ability might be innate to all of us. Lastly, it challenges our traditional understanding of time and space, proposing that they might be constructs of our perception rather than absolute realities.
➡ The text discusses the concept of remote viewing and telepathy, suggesting that some people have a natural talent for these abilities. It also explores the idea that everyone might be able to develop these skills with practice and the right mindset. The text questions whether humanity is evolving to become more in tune with these abilities or if societal and educational systems are suppressing them. It also suggests that ancient civilizations might have been more advanced in these areas than we are today.

If you can imagine my network of people in Silicon Valley, in New York, and let’s just say, highly intellectual in certain ways, but very much in the mainstream still. And I see them kind of regurgitating narratives and not thinking critically enough, let’s say, and that is concerning, that the machine is still able to steer and mind control people who have good intentions very often and are really, really smart. But if they apply that to critical thinking, how much better could it be? Just a quick break from your programming so I can give you a little information about Masterpiece.

They are the masters at removing toxins and heavy metals and aluminum and microplastics out of your bloodstream, out of your body. We are being bombarded with this crap from all over the place and we need to get it out of our bodies that you are more susceptible to every disease imaginable when that’s in your bloodstream. And I like Masterpiece. That’s the company I endorse. Why? Because they’re the only company out there that’s actually doing trials to prove to you that their product works. It removes graphene oxide, it removes aluminum, it removes microplastics and all sorts of toxins.

You can try yours today as well by going to sarahwestall.com under shop or with the link below. Welcome to business Game Changers. I’m Sarah Westall. I have Mark Gober come into the program. He is really smart. He graduated magna cum laude from Princeton and he was an investment banker in Silicon Valley. And as he tells you today, his mind was just started being expanded, you know, with the Internet learning things. And then when Covet happened, he just wrote a book on upside down cosmos. But he’s been writing this whole upside down series about how so much of our understanding is just upside down.

It’s based on false foundations. And. And then because everything’s based on this false foundation things later, the whole field of something is just not, you know, it’s a house of cards. So from the medical field, you know, he used a really great example of comparing medic into a garden and only focusing on pesticides versus the soil, the water, this, you know, the sunlight, all those other things. When it comes to why a plant’s not flourishing, so our body not flourishing only based on pesticides, which is the pharmaceuticals. And then when it doesn’t work, you double down on it.

And so that was his example of showing you how when a foundational element is wrong, how it messes up everything. And so much so we’re going to talk about this from history and talk about it from consciousness. We get into remote viewing, we get into quantum energy and entanglement. Everybody watches, knows. I love these conversations. This guy is really smart and he’s speaking my language. As far as starting to really analyze, you know, everything about history and our understanding, our foundational understanding in so many different directions and how the university systems are not help. They’re actually in our way, they’re actually an anch for our growth and that we, even though they’re an anchor for our growth, they keep your mind in a, in a, in a funnel or in a bubble.

They won’t let you expand, they won’t let you look and ask questions if it’s outside the paradigm. But yet so many people are still stuck in using university as the, the qualifier of whether something is legit or not. Did the university bless it? And if the university blessed it with a study, then it’s good. But studies coming from all these different and different people who are decades ahead of the universities, we don’t pay attention to because it’s not the university. Right. How many times are we seeing, oh yeah, the academics are talking about it. If you don’t have an academic talking about it, then it’s not valid when those academics come out of something that is decades behind what these people are talking about.

But these people aren’t given the same respect and credentials as the people. It’s like, that’s why I like sports so much. If you saw a team get their, their butt kicked, they got beat over and over and over again, you’re not going to give the respect to the team that got beat over and over again. You’re you. It’s so obvious to everyone that the team that deserves the respect are the ones that’s winning. But in, in our upside down world, the universities who are getting their butt kicked over and over again by people who are decades ahead of them, they still get the credit and the respect granted.

There are a lot of things coming out of the universities that aren’t bad. And probably the fact that they get all the funding and the attention is why this is happening. But you get my point. When it comes to a sport analogy, if somebody is winning and they’re way ahead, they’re just far superior, that should be where our attention and where things are considered legit. And as soon as you start realizing that these people who are decades ahead should get the respect, then we shouldn’t also say that learning in general is bad. It’s not one or the other.

So that’s what’s so great. About this conversation is the fact that universities right now are becoming an arbiter of truth and knowledge. And that’s so out of balance. Right. The point is to bring it back into balance, realize that learning can happen from any directions and that we put the universities into the spot that they should be put into. Right. And that’s what the discussions need to be. Okay. That being said, I love this. I love this show. And if you want to follow him, Mark Gober, I have the links below. You can learn all about him.

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So I have the links below or you can go to sarah westall.com under shop. You can also use the coupon code Sarah to save 10%. Okay, let’s get into this fantastic conversation I have with Mark Gober. Hi, Mark, welcome to the program. Hi, Sarah, thank you for having me on. You are. Have explored so many topics and your mind goes in all these different directions. And you just had a book out on consciousness and Upside Down World and I want to explore before we get into some of these other topics, can you tell me what that book was about? Well, first of all, what are.

What is your background and why did you get into just really wanting to get into all these different topics? My background on the surface is very mainstream. For undergrad, went to Princeton. Then I worked in investment banking in New York with UBS during the financial crisis. And then I spent about a decade in Silicon Valley advising technology focused companies. So that’s the platform. And then I went in a different direction. So many of us, you know, I have a pretty mainstream backgr too. I was, I’m in, you know, came out of telecom and big tech and all that stuff and, and.

But you just get to a point where you really want to learn about other things, right? You just. I gotta expand my mind. I. To me, it almost got boring. It got a little repetitive and I didn’t have a sense of meaning or purpose behind what I was doing beyond just trying to achieve. So it felt like being like on a treadmill, sprinting, but not really getting anywhere. And then I started listening to podcasts. This was in 2016, which opened my eyes to various things, which then led me to read books and look at scientific papers.

And then next thing I knew, I was asking questions about the nature of reality. What does it mean to be a human being? I was obsessed for about a year, and then I said I should write a book about this. And that was my book, An End to Upside Down Thinking, which is all about consciousness, which is the part of us that’s experiencing and the brain and the body. And there’s a big question in philosophy and neuroscience, which is how could our consciousness come out of a physical body? Because I could talk about consciousness, but I can’t point to it or draw it out.

We could draw a body and we could point to parts of the anatomy. So what’s the relationship here? How could something abstract like consciousness come out of a body? And what this book talks about, an end to upside down thinking, is the idea that maybe consciousness doesn’t even come from the body at all and that the body is like a vehicle or a vessel and we have to rethink all of reality. And that opens the door for things like psychic phenomena, which has been studied by the US government and many other places, and also potentially the afterlife.

And it’s a whole new picture of life. So for me this was a massive shift. Well, I, I think I went through a lot of that too when I started doing my show. And then all of a sudden, because I, my show was on the edge of change, right. Holy bucket, did I get exposed to change? And it, it just, and it was what I was asking for because I was bored. Right? You’re mentally bored and then you ex, you see all this stuff and then your mind just starts exploding. So that, that’s so fun that you started doing this.

And you know, Christianity and all these religions talk about the, the, our body is a vessel for your soul. Like it is not, it’s, it’s just a avatar essentially for your soul, which ties into what it is that you’re saying about possibly the consciousness. Everything else comes from external. Yeah. And to me that was another data point that spiritual and religious traditions all over the world were saying a similar thing. I thought to myself, maybe they were actually tapped into something that our science is now just catching up to. And when I say science, I’m talking about now a lot of peer reviewed papers.

The University of Virginia has a division of perceptual studies at the medical school. There’s an organization called the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which I’m now on the board of over 50 years worth of peer reviewed research. Princeton University had a lab run by the former dean of engineering studying phenomena like this. So I was just blown away that, well, I, I had, I thought I was well educated, but apparently I wasn’t. No. And, and we’re all learning. It’s not in the schools for the most part. And so we’re all learning. That’s why learning shouldn’t be confined to like, we like universities, we own learning.

Oh no you don’t. That’s ridiculous. You can’t. You, you have to get a stripe in order to learn. Learning comes in so many different packages and methods and so much of what we want to learn is beyond the grasp of current like you. You still think I’m gonna throw this at you, you still think that? And all of us do that the fact that a university has a study makes it suddenly valid. And in order for us to evolve, we do need to get past some of those ideas because they are behind. Universities right now are behind where the cutting edge is.

Oh yeah, well, I completely agree but if you take me back to where I was almost 10 years ago, I needed that, the validation of a credentialed university as a bridge. And now the way I look at it is that the universities are largely brainwashing institutions, that they steer people in a very specific direction and maybe they teach you how to think a little bit. Because I feel like I did learn a lot. Yeah. Yep. But almost every paradigm, I have a seven book series now. Paradigms that I was taught in university and elsewhere, I think they’re inverted.

So I’m with you on that. And I’m very much in tune with this whole homeschooling movement. I think we need new curricula to teach young people well and allow people to think critically and, and, and, and have the freedom, the freedom to think. I think it’s the, the, the lack of freedom to explore thoughts that is the biggest, I don’t know, word for it, the biggest crime, the biggest downfall is the fact that we don’t, don’t have freedom of thought to explore ideas, and we’re told to assume certain things as true and then work from there.

And what I’m finding over and over again, it’s sort of like, well, just grant me these few miracles and then we’re going to explain everything else. That’s how it works. Like the Big Bang. If we want to go there for a second, yeah, that’s cool. We can’t even understand the Big Bang. And there’s so many holes in the theory, and we’re making all kinds of inferences about something that allegedly happened 13.8 billion years ago in some place that so far away that we can never access. And we have a few observations here of some background radiation, and we come up with a whole narrative about how this thing started, where we don’t really understand it, and cosmologists.

And my most recent book is called An End to the Upside Down Cosmos. So I’m very fresh on this topic. But there allegedly was rapid inflation, meaning expansion at the early universe when the Big Bang happened. And in order for that to have happened, there needed to have been a particle called an inflaton to inflate things very quickly. But no one’s ever found an inflaton particle. And we run into the same problem with dark matter and dark energy, which makes up 96% of the universe. They’re not well understood. There’s an astrophysicist at the University of Bonn in Germany who’s now falsified dark matter.

I’m just giving a picture here of well, that’s a foundational belief in modern thinking, that the universe evolved in a certain way based on this one event. That’s an inference. And who. But who’s asking those questions about. Well, maybe that entire model needs to be rethought, because if it does, then we have to rethink timelines about this whole place that we’re in. What’s in the sky? And that’s just one example out of many. But if you do that in mainstream academia, as a scientist, it’s harder to get funding, it’s harder to win prizes. You have to kind of stay within their narrative if you want to be applauded.

Well, and they’re still in this cycle where, you know, you said 10 years ago, I need to see validation from those who aren’t really evolved enough to give us validation. I mean, I was still in that mode. And now after researching this for a decade or more, it’s like, well, they’re the ones that are behind, you know, they. They are like an anchor to our. Our exploration. And I do think more and more scholars, more people are catching up and going, yeah, I mean, it gave us a little bit of a fountain. If you have a STEM degree, you get some foundation, right? But, you know, and I have a computer systems engineering degree.

It gives you a foundation of how to think, but it really does it. I see the universities as an anchor. But now when you. When you look at things like the history that happens in Egypt, you know, like the, the pyramids, it’s the same thing. You have to believe in a couple of absurd miracles or absurd realities in order to have all the stuff after it go forward. And more people are realizing how dumb that is. You know, with the pyramids, the fact that they were made as tombs because of graffiti on one pyramid and nothing else is in it.

And when you look at other tombs, they have hieroglyphs everywhere, everywhere. And those tombs have nothing. I mean, it doesn’t match. And people making them in 20 years and our history, people are figuring it out that people with sticks and stones in primitive did not make those because they’re realizing that that false. One false thing is bs. And then all of archaeology is based on that. Exactly. You nailed it. And it’s like that in every discipline I’m finding, the more and more I look into things that these disciplines are based on fundamental presuppositions, these things that we’re just supposed to assume to be true, and you end up with a house of cards, basically, because an entire house is built on Top of a foundation that’s completely shaky.

And when you realize that the foundation is broken, you have to go in another direction, whether it’s consciousness, whether it’s politics, the medical industry, cosmology, you name it. What my inclination now is, what are the foundational assumptions? So if a doctor or someone says, well, this is our theory for why something happens, we have to ask them, well, how did you know that to be true? And often because I’ve had some conversations with doctors about my medicine book and asking them about foundational studies done, let’s say, on certain types of contagion or viruses and things like that.

And really they didn’t learn those foundational studies in med school. They just were told to assume certain things were true. And if you assume this and this and this, then you treat it this way. That’s right. It’s kind of like the. You didn’t look at the environment. You wrote a paper about this. I read it this morning about. I think you wrote the paper, at least wrote something about it. And somebody might have wrote, I think it was by you. But it’s like the upside down world in medicine where you focus on you. You compared it to a garden.

Was that you that wrote that paper or was it from your book? And you compared it to a garden. And the. You’re getting the rid of the pesticides in a garden, but you’re not paying attention to the soil, to the sunlight, to the all the environments because your plants aren’t thriving, right? The point is your plants aren’t thriving. So instead of paying attention to all these other elements, all you’re paying attention to is the pesticides and blasting it with different insecticides, and that’s the same thing as pharmaceuticals. Instead of looking at maybe the soil isn’t good, maybe you’re not getting enough sunlight.

I mean, all these different things, you’re not looking at the environment. Right. And the term that’s often used there is known as terrain theory, that if you want to look at the growth of the plants, you should take care of the soil very well and then the plant will grow. Sort of like if you want the body to be healthy, you need the underlying foundations of the body to be healthy. Rather than just worrying about these germs everywhere, let’s make the body in the best position possible and then it can do. Well, what I don’t like.

Hold on one second. I want you to address this. What I don’t like about some of those people that are talking about terrain theory to an extreme, we always have Extremists on everything. Like, let’s look at this garden. You can have an infest, infest infestation of grubs or something that’s hurting your plants, or you really can have some kind of pest that’s hurting you in a garden. Right. It’s like the, the extreme terrain theory. People say all that’s wrong. It’s like, well no, that, that’s one factor in, in this environment. It’s just you got to also look at the environment.

I’m so. Please comment on that. Yeah, I think they’ve gone off the edge in the other direction. I’m glad you mentioned that. I, I, I chronicle this debate in my book and into upside down medicine. And the argument that comes from the terrain theory side is that sure, they’re open to the idea that there could be microbes basically that are causing disease, but that hasn’t been established properly using the scientific method in studies. I’ll give an example. The Spanish flu was supposed to be the worst thing ever and it should be very easy, you’d think, to demonstrate the contagion of a particle from one person to another if this thing was killing millions of people and making so many people sick.

So there were studies done around that time, the Rosenhaus studies, which were in the Journal of American Medicine, and they tried everything and they couldn’t make any healthy people sick. They would have the sick people coughing in the faces of healthy people. So these are the kinds of anomalies that are out there that make people ask questions and sometimes they demonstrate contagion. For example, with regard to polio, they would take an unpurified sample and inject it in a monkey brain, which is not a way you would have a natural transmission. There are these red flags everywhere that are making people ask questions about studies that were done sometimes 100 plus years ago.

Well, so no, that’s really great. So it, and that’s the whole point is, is questioning the foundation that this is on, but not falling off the edge Ledge. And not because I love that your garden analogy. And when it comes to medicine, it’s such a great analogy. It’s like, what’s not? The pesticides is one factor and it really is, you know, a grub can infect a garden or whatever. That really is something that can happen. It’s just one factor out of 10. And you guys, that’s the only one that medicine cares about. Right? So I’ll give another analogy.

Let’s say a bunch of people go to a party and then a number of Them get sick afterwards with similar symptoms and they say, I caught something. That word caught has a very specific connotation which is that there was this microscopic particle that got inside of their cells. It replicated, it went from one cell to another, it exploded out, caused symptoms in that person and then jumped to another person that did the same thing. No one’s ever seen that, by the way. But let’s just say that’s one possibility. Even that’s limited because what if there was something else at the party? Maybe they ate food that had a certain toxin in it or maybe there was something in the building materials.

Probably. Yeah. Or toxins. Or maybe there were certain EMFs and, and frequencies there. Or maybe they had a certain trauma that they were shocked by and their bodies reacted to that trauma in a certain way. The point is, right? And it could shed whatever that was and it can affect other people too. Just a short break from the program to share with you an amazing peptide to help you lose weight. It’s stronger than Ozempic and why it’s because it not only reduces your appetite but it also burns fat. These other GLP1s on the market, they do not burn fat, they just reduce your appetite.

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It is easy and straightforward. Go to sarah wessel.com under shop or use the link below and remember to use coupon code Sarah and some people talk about like energy Too, like an energetic resonance. I don’t claim to know the answer. The point is what, like you just said, Sarah, people get locked into just one possible cause of illness, and then they build an entire industry around it, and then they don’t fund the other possibilities, and they do it in every direction. Right. And that’s the problem. And, and I think, you know, that’s one thing with, like this, this, the systems engineering, systems design, you know, training that I had is the one thing that I think it really helped me with, is to look at the big picture and figure out all the things that go into the system.

And that’s just how I think. And so I, and, and I, I love your approach on this stuff because I think that’s what you’re doing, but you’re breaking down all the foundational principles of everything, really, that we’re looking at. I love what you’re doing. I think it’s, it’s exactly what we need to do in order to reframe our history, reframe our current understanding of pretty much every discipline. Yes. If we’re told something is true, it’s known as a positive claim that’s put forth. That means the burden is on them to validate that it’s true. That’s not how we hear it.

However, they’ll say you need to validate the alternative. But that’s not logic. They say something is true, they have to defend it, whatever that is. And I say they, meaning the experts, the politicians, the scientists and so forth. But it’s almost treated as law that you’re not allowed to question it. And there’s also another important thing here, that it’s possible to falsify one model that’s put forth to us without knowing what the right answer is. So let’s just say we. Right. Yes, go ahead. We go to the party situation and we’re able to rule out that it was some microbe that went from person to person that caused them to be sick.

But then we might say, Sarah and I, we go and investigate it and we’re like, you know, we just, we ruled out that it’s a virus in this case, but we’re not sure what it is yet. And that’s okay to say, I don’t know. But most people don’t like to have that uncertainty. And so they have to define something. It’s this. Even though there’s no proof, it’s that. You can’t just go on to that. We don’t know that. It’s that we know it’s not this. We don’t know. These are all the factors that we’re investigating. And.

But that’s what it’s like with history. I think history is kind of one of the biggest ones, is there’s some weird anomalies that are happening everywhere with history. Kind of like the mud flood stuff. What the heck is that? What’s Tartaria? Why did Tartaria get wiped off the map? What is that? I don’t know. I’ve looked into that. Yeah. In my Cosmos book I mentioned it only briefly because I really don’t feel like I know enough with that history. It’s hard enough to know what’s happening in current events. Imagine trying to figure out what happened 50, 100, 200 years ago.

I mean, we are really just guessing based on little pieces of data. Well, and if, if somebody has an agenda and a narrative and they’re not going to let other information come through, the next thing you know, history is really messed up, isn’t it? Yeah. And then you could socially engineer and brainwash people to tell them one narrative only about what history was. And then they become attached to it like it’s a religion. And if you question it, they call you some crazy names. That’s exactly what we see. But that gets back to. I love this because that gets back to me saying that we don’t have the freedom of thought anymore.

Because if you are wanting to question something that just doesn’t sound right next, you know, you’re a freaking nut job in a conspiracy theorist and all you’re going, I’m just questioning the fact that Tartaria is wiped off the maps. I mean, I don’t know the answer, but isn’t that weird? Exactly. But I think it’s changing because of programs like yours and so many other alternative voices out there that people. It’s more acceptable in certain circles to ask questions, I think, about where we are today in 2025 versus the beginning of 2020. Like the notion of questioning a vaccine, of asking a question of what’s in this thing that, that you’re injecting me with.

That would have been a crazy question to ask. You’re a conspiracy theorist now. That’s acceptable by most people. Well, and that’s so great because 2020, I saw myself just completely erased. I was, I was unpersoned. It was my website. I mean, it was literally, literally everywhere. Okay. I, you know, the only thing that didn’t happen to me, I could still use my bank and my accounts, whereas other journalists actually had that. That Erased too. But wow, was that an experience for me being. And there’s still stuff that I can’t get on properly, like LinkedIn. And it just got back on Spotify.

I’m still off of YouTube. That was 2020. It was like it was an operation to erase free thinkers so that they could push a narrative. And that’s starting to lift. Right. Hopefully we can learn from that process and we can keep growing. Because I think your identification that 2020 maybe was one of the lowest points in human history and that, that we are waking up from that abuse as a, as a person now, do you think that as a society, do you think that mass abuse and onslaught on humanity is going to have an effect on us for decades? And what kind of massive, what kind of psychosis on a people is that going to cause? I think it’s going to have a big effect, especially on children during that era who were wearing masks and they weren’t able to socially develop properly.

So who knows what the consequences will be of that. On a negative perspective. But on the positive, the critical thinking went up in certain groups of people. I know for me this was very evolutionary period. I wasn’t interested in politics or a lot of the topics I’ve written about pre2020. So my first book was written pre2020 and the rest were after 2020. And just one example out of many people. And I think that’s reason for optimism. And then back on the pessimistic side, if you can imagine my network of people in Silicon Valley, in New York, and let’s just say highly intellectual in certain ways, but very much in the mainstream still.

And I see them kind of regurgitating narratives and not thinking critically enough, let’s say, and that is concerning, that the machine is still able to steer and mind control people who have good intentions very often and are really, really smart. But if they apply that to critical thinking, how much better could it be? Well, yeah, there’s so many smart people that are, are, are locked in this matrix. And that makes it very difficult because when really smart, capable people are locked into a matrix, that they actually implement the control structure without knowing it. Right, exactly, exactly.

They become pawns for it unknowingly. And that’s. You’re getting to another question that I have, like, what are the mechanics of this deception wherever we live in our society and the social engineering? Because to me it probably comes from some small group of people. I think there’s a metaphysical aspect here, a spiritual war of dark light. But like you said, Most people probably propagating the false narrative, they actually have good intentions and they think they’re being caring. I think so too. I think they’re being like, for some, some weird reason, reason, they think protecting people from thought, from people like us, benefits everybody else.

So I go into this in my fifth book and into the Upside Down Reset. I talk about this psychology of emphasizing compassion but doing it blindly. So it’s having compassion without the discernment necessary to know if something is actually compassionate. So I’ll give an example. Like dei. It sounds nice on the surface. So diversity sounds like a good thing. But then one of my favorite economists, Thomas Soule, he said, if you want to talk about diversity, ask how many Republicans there are in the university sociology department. There’s no ideological diversity. So there’s always this kind of like selective compassion, but then actually not being compassionate ideologically.

That’s one example out of many. So people think they’re doing a good job and they don’t realize that underneath the surface, their actions are actually not compassionate. That’s right, they’re not compassionate. I think if people could just get to the idea that let’s look at a way for everybody to maximize everybody flourishing. It’s really a simple concept. How do we maximize everybody to flourish? Suddenly all these dogmas and all the BS will go away. Because even, even so, there isn’t the. The DEI people have some merit to what they’re saying because people aren’t, you know, and the other side says, we got to go to a merit bait system.

Well, we aren’t really a fully merit based system because, you know, I love to use the orchestra as an example. They used to say, we are a merit based system. We only pick the best musicians for our, you know, orchestra, and these are the top orchestras in the world. And then people push back and said, okay, prove it. Let’s go get everybody behind a black screen. So you have no idea who you’re looking at. And it was amazing. Once they did that, everything equaled out. And so it proved to both sides, you know, there is some merit to the fact that there’s bias built into the system.

Right. So the DEI people have some merit to what they’re saying. The problem is they fell off a cliff and then implemented their bias in the other direction. And they did it in an extreme fashion. Yeah, exactly. So in that book and into the Upside Down Reset, I distinguish between leftism and liberalism, which many others have done as well. So liberalism would be people should be able to speak their minds freely versus Leftism is people should be able to speak their minds freely unless we subjectively deem their speech to be hateful. So it becomes authoritarian in this compassionate way, quote unquote.

It’s sort of an elitist mindset of we know what’s best for others and we’re going to try to make you safe. So you use the word flourish. And I completely agree with you that that’s what we should be trying to do is helping people to flourish. But this elitist mindset is actually not about that. It’s about we’re trying to do this to protect you, so we’re going to control you, but we’re not really controlling you because we’re just trying to keep you safe. It’s not about prosperity. It’s human beings are parasitic entities to the planet and they have to be controlled, otherwise they’re just going to go wild.

Yeah. And so we need to control them every single place we possibly can. Let’s get into consciousness, because that’s a concept that. That was your recent book, and it’s. It’s. So it’s where science is going, is understanding consciousness and, you know, people. Twins are a good example. My daughter has a friend who’s a. Who’s a twin, and her brother died a few years ago, and she knew before. She just knew he died and what happened. She felt it. Right. Twins have this ability to feel each other to me. And she thought she was crazy. She was afraid to tell people about it and stuff.

She doesn’t like to talk about it. And. And, you know, we told her. This is. We told my daughter. I don’t know if she told her yet. That’s quantum energy and a lot. You’re entangled you. This is what. Like, that’s consciousness. This is what you’re getting to the basis of. There’s a lot of proof that this is real. Twins have it just innately. Yeah, exactly. The idea is that consciousness, again, which is the part of us that experiences, might be something that transcends the body and the brain and is part of something that’s interconnected. One of my favorite analogies comes from Dr.

Bernardo Castro, philosopher. He says that we could imagine all of reality as like a stream of water, and each of us is a whirlpool within the stream, and the water’s like consciousness. So if I’m one whirlpool and you’re another one, if some of the water from my whirlpool gets into yours, that would be like a telepathic ability. Some of my consciousness Getting into yours. And what the researchers find is that when people are emotionally close, like twins or romantic partners or whatever, that their connections are even stronger. And there’s an example from Dr. Larry Dossey. He’s a medical doctor.

He’s looked at telesomatic events where you have one identical twin who is injured physically, and the other one develops the same injury, even though there was no physical thing touching that twin. That’s just one example out of many of this. You call it entanglement. Dr. Dean Radin, Chief scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, he wrote a book called Entangled Minds. So he tried to map this concept in physics of entanglements with these phenomena of consciousness that are now being studied and accepted. So there’s something built into the nature of reality itself that enables these things.

But if you talk to most academics, they would say, oh, those are just little anomalies. It’s a random event. We don’t need to take account for it, when we actually probably need to rethink all of reality. That’s right. And in this particular case, the person was ashamed to talk to people about it because they thought that people would think she was insane. And in reality, she’s far from insane. It’s been, you know, this is what reality is, and you should embrace that and can be supported for that. So it’s. It’s kind of points to, like, water.

You know, when those water tests were a vial of water, you can split it apart. And I’ve had scientists on talking about this, where water is in one continent. Continent, you know, North America in the United States, Ship one half of that water to Europe and then subject that water to structural changes with emotion. And the water in Europe changes, too. Yeah. This has been done by Cleve Baxter as well, in a similar capacity. He was the head of lie detection at the CIA, and he started to take basically cells out of a person’s body and put them in one place and then do something where that person’s body was being aroused in a certain way, and the cells would have a similar response.

The same thing with bacteria, like in a yogurt culture. I’m paraphrasing all this, where you take some of them out and then you harm one of the samples, and then the other one feel there’s a spike in the. In the other one. So there’s something that’s interconnected, even though they’re not physically connected, that we can’t see with our eyes. That’s right. And is it an illusion? Now? I’m Gonna go even farther. Is it illusion that we’re all in this one place? Or do you, have you thought about that? You know, am I here really? Or if that water got split up up, Is that just an illusion that it was really split up because of the way.

I don’t know, I’m just going there, I’m thinking, yeah, well, you’re right. It could be just the way that we perceive things and we create a whole interpretation of here and there, but maybe it’s all just here. Same thing with time. I mean time, the notion that there’s sequence of past to present to future. The only thing that we actually know is present, that we experience. The past is a memory, it’s a thought in the present moment. And then we reverse engineer using our mind to say that it happened at a different time because it feels that way.

But maybe it’s all just an ever present here and now. And the way our biology interprets it is that there’s past, present, future and here and there. But it’s actually not exactly that, that I don’t quite grasp completely. I mean, I can conceptually understand it, you know, how there’s a difference in conceptually understanding something versus like knowing it to be true. You know, it’s like I can’t get to that knowing part, but I can conceptually understand it just because it’s, you know, it’s something you can think about. Okay, So I love the idea of us starting to understand the fact that there is an interconnectedness of us.

I and I’ve been talking a little bit about the fact that I’ve been training in the remote viewing. I haven’t talked about a lot, but I am right because I want to understand it. I want to understand why is it that I, I can see things once in a while and why is it, can I feel energy? Why is it that I’m, you know, all these things? And I, I think everybody has that ability. And what I’m learning is that we have six senses. Some people say there’s five senses, some say six. But regardless, we have millions of data points coming into our senses and of which only certain a small portion of that gets to our consciousness.

They say 14 of those millions get to our consciousness. And that may be right, that may be wrong, but regardless, it’s very minute amount gets to our consciousness. The more connected you are, the more of those data points get to your connect your consciousness. So what do you now do you buy into that? And what are the senses? How does that connect to what we’re talking about here. Well, the way I think about it is there is, there’s something beyond the five senses and maybe it’s multiple things or multi layered that allows us to perceive. So it’s not seeing with our eyes, it’s not hearing with our ears, it’s something else.

And remote viewing is the ability to perceive something with the mind that’s far away in space and or time. And the US government explored this. It’s known as psychic spying. And their declassified documents which are in my book and end upside down thinking, direct quote, remote viewing is a real phenomenon. Implications are revolutionary. This is from the documents themselves. So this has been studied extensively. And if your audience is interested, I did a podcast series called where is My Mind? And I interviewed Russell Targ, who was one of, one of the leaders of the US government’s program.

Wow. When did you interview him? This was 2019. Is he still around? Yeah. I would, if you could set me up with an interview, I would be so thankful. Okay, yeah, keep going. I’m this. Yeah. But fascinating for me. But it’s interesting when I talk to people who have been involved in this and seen people do it in a 20 plus million dollar program. By the way, there’s a lot invested and who knows what’s happening now that hasn’t been declassified. That’s right. But to them it’s not a question of whether it’s real, they’ve just seen it too many times.

They know obviously this is a real thing, but it’s how can we maximize it? Why does it work? What does it say about our senses? But it also seems to be innate, like anyone can be taught it. But also, let’s just say like sports or art, there might be some people who are more naturally talented and it’s a combination of effort and talent. But we all have it within us. That’s right. Well, you know, like I said, I’m doing this formal training and the dad Smith I’m working with dad Smith, which he’s. He’s awesome. And he shared a.

Without saying any names or anything, he shared somebody that he worked with in the past who there’s like five or six stages in remote viewing. I’m only on stage two learning it. So I’m really a newbie. But it’s amazing how even in that stage you can connect with things. But he had somebody in stage one. Stage one is supposed to be just the tip of the IP for where you start to introduce yourself to the target and you know, the target is blind it’s usually double blind this time for training purposes. It’s just blind because he knows what they are, but nobody else does.

Or you know, the people who are getting, usually the person giving you the target is blind to the target. It’s just a number. But he had this person that he was working with, literally in stage one, they would do a full blown picture, just come out of their, out of their mind that was exactly the target. And it was just like right away and 63 times in a row an exact duplicate of what the target is. It was like, oh my God, I saw these. I mean that is genius at with remote view. It was amazing to see somebody with that capability.

And so for people to say this doesn’t exist, when you see proof like that, you know it’s possible, right? I think what the skeptics will say, they’ll point to the examples where it didn’t work. But that’s really faulty logic because it’s not necessarily the case that people are 100% accurate every single time. If it ever occurs, that tells you something is wrong with the, with the current mainstream paradigm. And often what we get in let’s say studies of people who are not trained, I’ll give an example with telepathy studies. This is mind to mind communication. The classic study, it’s called the Ganzfeld experiment, where you have two people in different rooms and these are not people who are trained in psychic abilities, sometimes they’re college students.

And one person is just put into a relaxed state and the other person in a different room is shown an image by the experimenters. And the experimenters ask that person to try to use their mind to send it to the other person. So after this person is trying to telepathically communicate, the person in the other room who did not see the image is shown four images by the experimenters, one of which was being sent telepathically, allegedly. And if there were no effect at all, we’d expect study after study, the person who was guessing which picture was correct, they would guess correctly.

Roughly one out of four times, about 25% because it’s totally random chance. But that’s not what happens. It’s between 30 and 32% of the time they get it correctly, which is, it’s in the six sigma statistical results category, which means billion to one odds against chance. So meaning that 5 to 7% deviation from the 25% is massively significant. Meaning there’s some information sometimes getting through even though it’s not 100%. Well, and I Think the people who are talented of it gets back to where I was saying that the only a certain percentage of stuff gets to our consciousness.

For some reason, more people or some people have the ability for more of that to get to their consciousness. And it’s just a talent. Like it just comes to them and all of us maybe can develop it. I don’t know. Because through this process, I’m learning that you get better at it. That’s my understanding. In talking to people who have been in this for a long time. There are protocols that anyone can do this. It’s about relaxing the mind and really tapping into the image that just pops in. It’s an abstract thing. Like I was saying about consciousness before.

I can’t point to it. So we all have to go within ourselves and deal with our own subjectivity and learn how our own mind works. So that takes time and effort. It doesn’t. It’s a process of learning. I’m just trying to understand it because I know this is tied to the. Our understanding of consciousness and the quantum energy and to all this stuff. I. I know this is the realm that things are going. But there’s. Somebody posed a question to me the other day. They said, are we developing more of our ability to do this as a.

As a human species, or are we losing our ability as a human species? My view is we’ve always had it and it’s being blocked in various ways, probably through the education system, which gets us in our mind and our intellectual mind so much that we’re clouding out more of the intuition. And then, who knows, chemically and otherwise, the things that are being done to our biology that affect our ability to tap in better. It seems like we’re being tampered down. And it’s part of this awakening and the dark versus light that I was describing that the human being.

I would say this is my synthesis of all the research I’ve done. The human being is much more powerful and significant than we’ve been taught. And there’s been an intentional desire to keep us in ignorance and keep us feeling small. Do you think that in our past that we were more connected? I mean, do you. Do you think that because they’re tampering down. When you look at some of the historical past, you know, like Tartaria, I know you haven’t dove into it a ton, but a lot of people say that we were really growing spiritually. There was some connection happening with Tartary, and then they wiped it off the planet.

It essentially. Do you think that Is something that they. It happens in cycles where humanity grows and starts to figure some of this stuff out and then they work to wipe it out. Or do you buy into the Kaluga theory where it’s a 10,000 year process and depending on how close we are to the universe, we are more. We’re less dense and our mind grows and our abilities grows as we be as that un. You know, because the concept is there’s a bunch of debris as we’re moving through the universe, there’s a bunch of debris that blocks the energy coming in from the center.

And as we move, the debris starts clearing out. That’s why it’s a 10,000 year cycle. And in different parts of the are, you know, traveling around the universe, it becomes less and less dense, dense and then more and more dense. And in less dense areas we as human beings are less dense mentally and are more connected and that’s our human development. You know, that 10,000 year. What do you buy into? Do you buy into that? It’s a great question. I really don’t know. And it could be some combination. It could be that there are shorter cycles and then also these longer cycles of cosmic influence.

It’s just really hard to discern what’s going on other than. I think if we look back at the ancient writings from all over the world and even ancient archaeology, there seems to have been advanced people at a time when they shouldn’t have been. Based on the mainstream historical narrative. The mainstream narrative is that we’re the pinnacle of society. Basically we’re the pinnacle of innovation and advancement. And so I actually think the opposite. That we probably had more advanced stuff a while ago. And then some things have happened where we’ve been kept in a state of ignorance and we’re trying to catch back up.

But the mechanism of that, I’m not sure you ask a good question. Yeah. Because I mean that, that makes sense. It makes scientific sense that it ha. That there we have this 10,000 year cycle and the timing of, of when Jesus came and whatever you believe in the spiritual or Christianity, that timing, if you believe in that 10,000 year cycle, Jesus came at the very lowest point of that 10,000 year cycle. Which is pretty amazing. Right. I mean that’s pretty profound too. That humanity needs some something like that and that somebody would come to help us get out of the darkest times.

We’re in it. Yeah. So anyways. That’s wild. Yeah, I know that. That is a plus for spirituality. Okay. You are so fascinating. I have to have you back on a on a regular basis. Where can people follow you and get your books and give us your spiel because they you’re a must follow. Thank you Sarah. I appreciate you having me on and I appreciate your open mind to all this stuff. My website is a good place to start. It’s just my name. Mark gober.com M A R K G O B R.com all of my books are on Amazon in hard copy, Kindle and Audible formats.

I narrate the audibles myself. And my podcast series, even though it came out in 2019 on the topic of consciousness, it’s still relevant. It’s called Where Is My Mind? It’s eight short episodes, bingeable, and you can find it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and all the major players. Well, thank you so much for joining the program. I really appreciate it. Thank you Sarah.
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